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News Article Comments : If the tie goes, regionals suffer
Members of Parliament aren’t flavour of the month at present and you’d think they would engage their brains before opening their mouths and uttering total nonsense.
And yet there was one MP, in a brief debate on the tie, telling the Commons that “the tied house system should have gone out with the Corn Laws”.
How about a little historical accuracy? The tied house system didn’t exist at the time of the Corn Laws. An act of 1815 cut back on the import of corn in an attempt to help British farmers and to restrict the manufacture of gin, which was cheap and causing social havoc; one sign outside a London gin shop declared “Drunk for a penny, dead drunk for twopence”.
The Beer Act of 1830 was introduced to counter what MPs at the time thought were two evils: cheap gin and the power of licensing magistrates to control the supply of liquor. MPs wanted to break the stranglehold of the magistrates and encourage the consumption of healthy beer rather than gut-rot gin.
The act allowed any ho
63 Posts(s) found for this thread: Now displaying page 4 of 7
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Inez Ward 11/05/2009 21:12:58 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer I don't know about other areas, but I can't see there being any difference, in my area the freeholders have all got together and created a buying group, pubs, hotels, campsites and others. They buy from the large global brewers and the small brewers. edited by: Inez Ward at: 11/05/2009 21:13:54 This post replies to Edward Compton > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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Edward Compton 11/05/2009 21:33:43  |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Exactly Ms Ward, you are talking about the prevailing economic opportunities in the prevailing economics of the market. To seek to transpose those conditions to a future market where the structures and conditions are significantly changed is to fly in the face of the econmics of how markets operate. Who was it who said, "You can't buck the market".? This post replies to Inez Ward > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| Inez Ward 11/05/2009 21:44:31 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Edward please call me Inez, you appear to be missing my point somewhat, the individual licensee versus the global brewer argument just does not stand up for the simple reason that the licensees can get together and then they are no longer individuals! This post replies to Edward Compton > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| info man 11/05/2009 21:58:58 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Lets see what happens shall we. Do you think that freetraders would stand for a market price increase of 100%+ on their current prices? I think not, and maybe just maybe the brewers would be happy to get paid rather than waiting three months plus to get paid. Rumour has it has one major pubco is cash on order already. My last point is that when you actually speak to reps from the brewers the story coming over is quite different. They would be only too happy to sell to the pub direct as then they could sell for a price that they currently charge freetraders/free holders. The would be able to offer genuine support with their products at a price which made profit for all. Brewers claim their margins are so low due to the pubco stranglehold and want to break free. The argument for the small brewers still operating a tied system is workable if the system is fair and equitable. edited by: info man at: 11/05/2009 22:39:10 This post replies to Edward Compton > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| Karl Harrison 11/05/2009 21:59:37 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Edward Please explain to me why the free trade accounts will change so substantially because of the removal of the tie? At the moment it could be argued that free trade prices are still too high in any event as freehouses are paying brewers to subsidise the discounts given to pubcos, which are then retained to service debt. It may not sound very charitable but publicans don't go into business to be a cheap distribution channel to keep brewers happy. We are in business to realise a profit. I'm very much in favour of beer and am interested in brewers but I'm not sure that publicans work all hours and put up with high rent and outlandish pubco prices just so that members of SIBA can negotiate with a few pubcos rather than 30,000 publicans. You normally argue from an informed viewpoint but your comments in this regard seem highhanded and out of touch. Price to the consumer is one factor. Loss of margin and profit to the tied publican reduces incentive and re-investment which is not in the interest of the consumer. This post replies to Edward Compton > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| Edward Compton 11/05/2009 22:17:39 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Ms Ward, you're very kind, but until we have been intoduced. I will stick to the established formalitites. I will repeat my point. In a market where over 50% of pubs are tied in one form or another, it provides the opportunity for free of tie licensees to operate a certain negotiating model. That model no longer operates in a market where there are zero per cent tied licensees. In a market where some 47,000 individual licensees will be competing for best price the supplier is king. This post replies to Inez Ward > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| Inez Ward 11/05/2009 22:29:32 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Mr Compton I have asked nicely for you to please call me Inez, I do not appreciate any other. As you have asked for an introduction first then please let me introduce myself, my name is Inez, I have been married for the last 22 years, I am mother of 3 and grandmother of 1 with another expected in August. I am a soon to be ex Enterprise Inns lessee and the founder member of Justice for Licensees and The Save the Great British Pub Campaign. Again you mention the fate of 47,000 individual licensees, I think that I have proved the point that there is no need for individual licensees as the licensees can work together ie buying group, therefore the argument is mute! This post replies to Edward Compton > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| Edward Compton 11/05/2009 22:24:53 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Mr Harrison, it's quite simple really. the negotiating power of free trade accounts will change because the structure of the market will have fundamentally changed. One of the basic economic text books on this issue, "The Power of the Firm" explains this dynamic quite succinctly. The fundamental mistake that seems to be being made is to transpose current market dynamics into a future trading position. Clearly that cannot and will not be the case. The economic power will move from that of bulk purchaser (no matter how 'fairly' that may be distributed down the value chain) to the power of the supplier. That will occur because of a widely distributed and naturally fragmented market. It will be in the economic interest of suppliers to keep that market fragemented and they have the ability to do so. As they have already stated, they would not be that concerned if another 10.000 pubs go out of business, because they believe that will enhance further their power in the market. As indeed it will. Your seeming acceptance of the demise of SIBA members under 'the new world order' would seem to be testament ot this economic truth. I would also argue that the price and offer to the consumer is of paramount importance in the market. They are the people that make your business. If they were to learn you put your profit above their interest, I'm not sure they would be that sympathetic to your cause. This post replies to Karl Harrison > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| J Mark Dodds 11/05/2009 22:29:05 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Dear Edward, if you were a clairvoyant I'd consider your empty logic - but you're not. Your crystal ball is clouded by a very particular pro pubco propensity. Why is that Ted? You have an interest you don't want to publicise. Isn't that so? "Ms Ward, you're very kind, but until we have been intoduced. I will stick to the established formalitites." Fascinating Edward. When, exactly, Edward, do you think you will be introduced to Inez? And would you really drop your formalities at that moment? I suspect the last thing you;d want is to be introduced to Inez, or me, or Steve Corbett - or anyone who's a tied licensee - because your arguments hold no ground against what is really happening to this industry. You are dreadfully mis-informed, no matter how deep are your convictions, about the impact of the tie. A face to face discussion will disabuse you of your illusions. Please PM me if you want a chat about it. Sleep tight, Edward, don't let the bed bugs bite. This post replies to Edward Compton > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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| Inez Ward 11/05/2009 22:54:59 |
If the tie goes, regionals suffer Mr Compton just one more thing for you to think about, let's just say that the tie goes, what's to stop all the tenants getting together to produce their own buying group? 300,000 members how many of those are tied lessees, just thinking that I am known as a high profile tenants rights activist (I think that that was the wording), something worth thinking about????? This post replies to Edward Compton > If the tie goes, regionals suffer |
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